You've probably heard this before. It's what people use when denouncing gay marriage. It's a sin. It's not natural.
The reason I'm bring this up is because of New York passing a law allowing gay marriage. The locals here in Idaho are up in arms, and bible verses are being tossed around left and right...
My personal opinion is this: I'm for gay marriage. All US citizens should have equal rights. Gay, straight, pick any skin color, IQ of 56 or 156, we are all equal. How is this different than passing a law saying that people without a High School Diploma are not allowed to vote? Discriminating against gays is ok, but we can't discriminate against the stupid? The poor? The people who listen to bluegrass?
But...but... the BIBLE!!! You can't defy the word of God!
Well, I think this whole 'homosexuality is a sin' thing is getting passe. Let's pick another abomination from the bible and start rabblerousing, shall we?
- Shellfish are sinful (Leviticus 11:9-12) "Of the animals that live in the sea or in a river, if the animal has fins and scales, you may eat it. But whatever lives in the sea or in a river and does not have fins and scales -- including the things that fill the water and all other things that live in it -- you should hate. You must not eat any meat from them or even touch their dead bodies, because you should hate them. You must hate any animal in the water that does not have fins and scales."
- Dog Breeds like Labradoodles, farming diverse crops, or wearing a cotton/poly blend will send you to hell (Leviticus 19:19) "Keep my decrees. Do not mate different kinds of animals. Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material."
- Eating your steak rare is going to make God angry (Lev. 19:26) "Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it."
- Shaving your beard (ladies, I'm looking at you...) (Lev. 19:27) "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."
- Tattoos are taboo (Lev 19:28) "Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD."
- Sorry conservatives, no more poo-pooing illegal immigration (Lev. 19:33-34) "When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. 34 The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God."
Or maybe the next time you get a haircut, and the stylist asks you if you want your sideburns trimmed, smack them with a bible and tell the heathen what's what...
Debating with family one night, one said "Well you can't take everything the Old Testament says as law anymore. Jesus came to Earth, and wrote a new set of rules we follow. Essentially the Old Testament is obsolete."
Oh really? Cool. All those laws above (including the gay stuff) is from the same book in the O.T. If we're saying wearing blended fibers is ok, and planting more than one crop in the field, why are we still hanging on to the belief that homosexuality is evil? The bible doesn't say sin A is worth 5 points and sin B is worth 12... why do we hang on to some but dismiss others?
Now the fun part... I open up the discussion to you.
What are your thoughts on this? I'm not gay, but I think they should have equal rights. I'm not Atheist, but I think some parts of the bible are just as absurd as the people who quote it. What do YOU think??
52 witty retorts:
This is great!
I think this is a great post.
I get bent way out of shape when people step on the civil liberties of others in the name of their particular religious beliefs.
OR, More simply... ass hats. those who oppose are ass hats.
Well said Idaho... not really anything for me to debate here. Tolerance is key and long overdue.
Fuckin Levites, man. They were some cranky dudes.
The world would be a much better place if people treated the Bible as a book of ideas and folk tales, as opposed to a hard-and-fast how-to manual for life. People don't realize that a lot that is written in the Bible was likely protecting the status quo for the powers-that-be at the time it was written. Not to mention, context, context, context. Like that stuff about 'Submit to your husband'? That wasn't a rule, that was ADVICE because at the time the Bible referenced, the Romans (or maybe the Greeks? I can't remember which offhand) would em-effin' STONE YOU TO DEATH if you didn't.
That being said, yeah, any consenting adult should be allowed to marry any other consenting adult.
If people insist on treating the Bible or any other religious text as law then they should be forced to validate this by proving the existence of God. And they should also be banned from using aircraft as flight is not natural to humans.
Those baptist church people make me so mad!!!!!!
See, that's what happens when you wander around the desert for 40 frikkin' years because the old dude with the beard (who looks suspiciously like Charlton Heston) is too damn proud to ask the kindly Bedouin family for directions. You get cranky and condemn lobsters, polyester, and eating dogs (wait. I'll give them a pass on that one).
As far as gay marriage, whatever. I don't care. If two dudes want to hook up, that's fine with me. If two chicks want to register at Filene's all the power to them. If two HOT chicks want to do the horizontal lambada on their honeymoon, by all means do so (Misogynist Statement to follow: just make sure you let me watch).
I don't get the Bible, though. "Lie with a man as you would a woman?" I don't get it. You mean on taxes?
My thought has always been that you shouldn't run a country based on a religion that not everyone buys into. And honestly? Who effing cares who's sleeping with who? Seriously. Since when should we be policing what people are doing in their own homes when half of the politicians making these laws are breaking enough biblical rules for all of us.
I love it. It always amazes me how conservatives want to force their ideals on others, even when the end result will not affect their lives one bit.
We have a potential gay marriage vote coming up here in MN similar to the NY vote last week. I can only hope us Minnesotans have the same sense as New Yorkers. The good news, we are a liberal leaning state so I think we're in good shape.
SD
www.TheSimpleDude.com
Leviticus sounds like a mega twat on a power trip.
First let me say I don't believe I will ever get married for any reason.
That said: I'm in a homosexual relationship, in NY, and I'm damn proud that we're progressing forward. Especially as, I'm not christian either. Human rights, mean rights that apply to humans.
This is the next civil rights issue of the 60's and 70's and it's about damn time we started screaming louder for equality.
There's no such thing as 'almost equal'. You either are, or you are not. So far, this country has lauded one epic inequality after another. When you oppress one, you oppress all. Fortunately there are those of us willing to Rise Against the voices that oppress everyone.
A+++++ post.
Agree with you 100%.
I linked this to my facebook page...because I freaking love it!!
You made some awesome points and I adore the fact that you put the bible verse in there so that our religious friends can reference it themselves.
i hate fags, and their marriages.
fck off!
I love all of those - some of my personal favorite you've listed there, fo'sho!!
I have 2 cross breeds, I love seafood, have 2 tattoos and can be a switch-hitter if the mood presents itself. YAY, GOD!
There's just as much proof god exists as there isn't.
There's just as much reason to marry gay as there isn't.
Not too different are they =3
Although that was incredibly vague you may get what I mean
I also think the big book is absurd at many times. I think its original intention was fair and good, but it causes too many problems there and only with convenience. I'm sure in a distant future, the extremely religious will not have any problems with the gay population, just as they don't have a problem with shellfish or rare steak.
I say give them their rights, everywhere. Marriage isn't just a religious right, it's a lawful one. If it's really currently an issue, just don't allow it take note of it in church.
a-bom-inations. I love that word. Sounds like it's going to crash and burn. Yeah, I don't get the Bible freaks. Two hundred years from now, someone will find a Harry Potter book tucked into a cave and a new religion will be born and people will spend their fortunes, fight battles, build churches and study every single word as the word of the Lord Potter. Whatever. Get over yourselves people. You have to share the sandbox with all of us, gays and freaks, atheists and Jersey folks. I don't know how you do it. You should win an award. I wouldn't even stop my car if I were driving through Idaho. Conservatives make me break into a rash.
lol u posted the same thing twice, are u drunk already?
BRAVO! If you are going to use the Bible as your method of determining right and wrong, you can't pick and choose what serves you best. There was far more than 10 commandments, read them all folks!
Lobster, eh? I always figured Condi Rice as a 'crabs' kind of wench.
Love it. It's amazing how manny people will see one part of any text and completely ignore the rest. We're all masters of twisting words to our own use.
As to what I think about gay marriage. Go for it. I don't care who you love as long as you're not hurting anyone...there are more important things to worry about in this day and age rather than worrying about people in love.
Discriminating against stupid people isn’t the same thing as discriminating against gays. Stupid people have choice, their entire lives are wrapped around fashion trends and frivolous celebrity gossip, they could improve themselves at any time.
Well said. You and everyone else have pretty much covered it all...so I don't have much to add. But, well said.
As a liberal Mormon (yes we do exist), I must say that I could less who marries who. Just don't tell my Bishop I said so.
Great post !!! I think anyone should marry whoever they want doesnt matter the sex. good stuff keep posting
I'm not really trying to take a leftist attitude here, but I'm seeing a lot of left-leaning comments.
To the right side: What say you? I want to get some conservatives weighing in on this. I really don't peg myself as an R or a D, but this post seems to be gravitating a little left-of-center...
Great feedback, but still a one-sided debate. Where's an opposing opinion? Or did I just win the argument for all mankind?
As a conservative, and therefore Right about everything, I take exception to the misconception that conservatives are stripping people of their "rights".
I do not agree that anyone has the "right" to get married. That said, I don't care if a man marries another man or a woman or a goat as long as it doesn't hurt children or cost me money. I don't see that gay marriage does either of those things, so I'm for it. I'm not going to take to the streets or anything, but I have no issue with it. There are more conservatives who feel this way than most of you think.
Now if only liberals would stop restricting the rights of these newly married gay couples to eat trans fats, smoke in public, carry handguns, and pay less than a vomit inducing amount of their income to the government...
Lost in Idaho, you are my new hero!!!
I've been meaning to do this very thing for such a long time, but haven't been in much of a mood for going through and digging out the references. Now you've made them handy here, all in one place.
I'm not gay either, but enough is enough. GREAT POST!
...I now demand a picture of a gun-toting, chain-smoking, fast-food eating gay couple...
Awesome comment, Gucci. Thanks.
Oh yeah, I forgot. I don't see you getting any conservatives to take you up on this logically. You HAVE won the argument, WITH THEIR OWN RULEBOOK.
They don't have a logical argument for their attitude. All that's left open for them is the route blorriepoes upthread took, and they refuse to look at themselves that clearly.
Natch. In light of Gucci Mama's comment I would like to edit "conservatives" in mine to read religious folk. My bad.
Clearly you missed the comment from the smartest (and hottest) Conservative EVER TO LIVE.
Hint: Her name is Gucci.
I don't think this is really a 'right vs left' battle. Conservatives aren't the enemy in this fight. It's the deeply religious that live and die by the parts of the bible they choose to read (and the parts they choose to ignore).
Granted, most of the people in this category have an 'R' at the end of their name, but that doesn't mean all conservatives are bad.
I'm eyeballing groups like the LDS church, which caused an uproar in California with Proposition 8. The Southern Baptists that believe you are going to hell if you don't believe what they do. The people who don't understand the separation of church and state...
It's the RELIGIOUS right, not the right in general, that are closing their ears and going 'lalalala' on the subject. This topic doesn't affect them directly or indirectly, they just try to impose their values on others.
...and in southern Idaho, I'm surrounded by them...
Ha! Sally, we saw that at the same time. ;-)
I HATE being lumped in with the "religious right" because while they vote right, they're a bunch of loons who give us brilliant conservatives a bad name.
Drives me insane.
PS - Pretty much everything I know about Mormons comes from the show "Big Love", but holy shit do they have a ton of influence! It's unreal.
Good article Brandon and good points were made. But what you failed to mention is that the law that you are quoting is the old testament law where RELIGION was key. When we move to reading the new testament after Jesus came to change RELIGION for RELATIONSHIP with Him he changed alot of these "laws" Though the law pertaining to homosexuality was not changed. (See Romans Chapter 1)
With that said, as believers we have the responsibility to uphold what is expected of us all around. This includes voting laws parallel with our beliefs. This does not mean that we should act in a hateful manner and not love our neighbors. (See Romans 12 If anyone has any question of how a true Christian should be, this chapter calrifies this.)
Now I believe most people will not agree with my beliefs but that is why they are mine. I don't expect others to believe as I do but I do expect what I give and that is respect. I respect others votes and if majority rules gay marriage is legal, then ok. If majority rules abortion is legal, then ok. I have done my part and all I can do now is live my life the way I see best. Loving others (includes everyone) and loving God!
Hopefully this "right" wing opinion helps :)
Thank you, anon. If I knew who you were, I'd probably hug you for this comment.
Truly, if more people who called themselves Christian thought the way you did, this would be a better world.
I especially loved the comment about respect. I think respect is the core of this topic. It is a respect of keeping your faith, without imposing it on others. This is "One nation, under God" after all. The birth of the US was intertwined by faith.
But, the founding fathers also saw the importance of church and state being separate. I don't mean to offend when I mock the ignorant who claim to "know God." I simply want to open some eyes. I have my own views, and my own faith. Where I draw the line is my respect for others.
I personally am against abortion. If my girlfriend was suddenly pregnant, it would not be an option. We have had some scares in the past, and we just planned on adjusting if she were indeed pregnant. That said, I strongly believe in a woman's right to choose. My respect for others will not allow me to impose my beliefs on others.
Whether you believe homosexuality is a sin, or just don't care, who are we to impose our values on others? The founding fathers couldn't predict the internet, slavery being abolished, or women actually wanting to vote. But here we are. This is the next step in our evolution as a society. The next wall to break down. It's about showing a mutual respect to people with different views than you.
...and doing it WITHOUT breaking into a Lady Gaga song...
i am for human rights in every situation. not my business what someone does behind closed doors and everyone has the right to love who they chose to love without being subjected to judgement. +follwed
From one of my FB friends:
"Personally, I believe everyone should do what they feel is right for them. With that said, marriage has always been a social contract specifically aimed at making procreation legal between two consenting adults. Therefore, if the intent of the contract is not to procreate and have children, then the contract should not be entered into.
With that said, I can understand that marriage can lead to adoption, but I don't feel that the child will be reared in the best environment. This fear is by no means due to inadequacy on behalf of the parents. I believe that society as a whole is neither ready nor willing to fully accept same-sex marriage, and therefore, the child will always be subject to forms of hostility."
He ended with this, and it made me chuckle... http://www.cracked.com/blog/3-things-gay-people-are-going-to-hate-about-gay-marriage/
I've always struggled with the faulty logic of those against gay rights or really, human rights in general. I have yet to come across someone who was able to come up with a legitimate argument to their perspective. I'm all about sharing perspectives and having conversations with those that have good discussion points and the use of solid logic and reasoning can even be a bit of a turn on for me. But when it comes to topics like homosexuality, it seems impossible to have a healthy dialogue with those that are against it.
It's funny that you mention 2008 as I remember writing a post after being confronted with this issue on my college campus and my exploration of the topic in a performance studies class I was taking at the time. Low and behold the post was from 2008:
A Response to the Westboro Folks
I just want to say that this is a brilliant post and I love the fact that the comments that follow are of all opinions.
I consider myself spiritual and not religious. Organised/formal religion is not my thing and in the end the bible was written by man.
I believe in gay marriage and legal rights for sex workers.
I believe in the individuals right to choose how they wish to live thier life as long as that choice does no harm to others.
I also believe that oysters are comparable to eating snot and whoever decided crossing any dog with a Shitzhu should be crucified.
Ok I really dont like small yappy dogs.
For those of you that love reading the comments, here is some lovin from my Facebook (from the religious, anti-government right):
FB Debate Part 1
aaand Part 2
THIS is why I read and research, instead of simply believing what others tell me.
When someone tells me "oh, it passed by a 65% margin 4 times" I research and fact-check. If anything passes by a 65% margin (83% to 27% vote would be a 66% margin, for example) why would it need to be voted on 4 times???
For those who think I just talk and don't stand behind my beliefs, think again. This is my childhood best friend and his dad that I'm debating, and it's not pretty.
You're so silly, anyone who can read literature past the elementary school level can see that the evidence you used are actually metaphors and were not meant to be taken literally. Unfortunately, 99% of the population believe in taking the bible literally, even in trying to disprove some of its sayings, which to me looks stupid either way its used. The farming diverse crops citation is a perfect example. The whole mating different breeds and not planting the different crops on the SAME field (which IS hazardous agriculturally, for diverse farming, plot different fields ;P) are metaphorically used to describe the moral that one must stay in monolithic community because to put two naturally antithetical things together is duplicitous and self-destructive. One must mend and commune.
I honestly don't care, and would like it if everyone had equal rights, but please stop using this "technique" in arguing. it's a literal fallacy.
@Leila: I'm just speaking their language in a way they can understand. If I'm talking to you, I talk in a normal, rational, logical fashion. When I talk to the kooks I have to speak kookinese (or Glen Beckian, as it were...)
This post was to take a tongue-in-cheek approach to stupidly argue a stupid argument. I'm glad you saw the satire in it, as most did not. The crux of the argument is still 'equal rights for all' but I went about it in my usual smart-ass tone.
This was really entertaining, but I completely agree. I support it, but I respect the rights of people who don't. But like you said, when did any one sin become worse than another? This is where the GOD aspect stops and men try to do his job for him lol
Whether or not he is up there, we should all just get along already, there are much more important things to waste our time with.
Excellent post! I just discussed this with a friend recently. People pick and choose from the Bible what they wish to enforce. I call them HypoChristians. It's a shame how gays are treated. Just let them be.
I think I love you.
As a semi-detached Catholic, I've always been accused of not knowing my bible. And it's true. I don't.
However, I know enough to know that most people can find something in the form of a bible verse to support or denounce ANYTHING.
I've just never seen it done quite so wittily. Love it!
I love this post!
I'm not religious or gay, but I support gay marriage, or any marriage between people who love and take care of each other.
It's absolutely true that you can find a bible verse to support or denounce anything that you can possibly think of. I tend to want to distance myself from both groups of those people, personally.
it's true that Bible verses can be used (misused) to say anything, as exampled in your blog,(2 Peter 3:16) when read correctly, like the Bereans (Acts 17:11). The Bible is inspired by God.(2 Timothy 3:16, Proverbs 30:5-6)the old testament laws were not meant for Christians, the new covenant (testament)covers that (John 14:6, Acts 4:12, etc.)the Bible does not say to hate the sinner, only the sin for we are all sinners (Psalms 14:3,etc)and I will leave you with Isaiah 55:6
Anon, I love your use of words "The bible is inspired by God." This is extremely true, and people on both sides need to be reminded by this.
Especially the literalists, found in many mainstream chrstian-based religions. Some people see a few passages and say "This is the Word, the Law. End of argument." What many forget is the numerous translations of the book over the last few thousand years, where some things may have been altered.
I believe in showing love to all mankind, and believe that I am no better (and no worse) than any other person. I consider you my equal, and thus, believe you should have equal rights and privileges.
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